The Myth of Lazy Students
A Q&A with Sonia Kristen
Mark Gordon, Host:
Today we’re taking on the myth of the “lazy student” and asking a harder question: what if disengagement has less to do with kids and more to do with the environments they’re learning in? For all the talk about motivation, boredom, and discipline, the truth is that great teachers can completely change the equation by making learning feel alive and worth showing up for. Our guest is Sonia Kristen, a public school teacher with more than 20 years of experience, whose work shows how the right approach can awaken curiosity, effort, and confidence in students who might otherwise be written off.
You’ve heard it many times: kids today are lazy. They’re not motivated. They’re not disciplined. “Why, when I went to school, I walked 12 miles backward in deep snow...” and so on. Are all those complaints accurate? Is there something to them? Or is that just old fogies making their lives seem more important?
There is plenty of evidence, though, that young people are disengaged today. In a 2019 Gallup poll, 68% said the first and foremost thing about school was that they were bored. In a 2023 CDC study, nearly 40% of all students felt a sense of hopelessness and despair. So is that laziness?
Let me tell you a story about a professor I knew. He told me that the students at the very good school where he was teaching had become lazy. He said he had seen the change over 20 years. I asked him whether he had changed his teaching methods, and he said no. In reality, the students weren’t lazy. He was.
Just as a lazy teacher can make students seem lazy, even if they’re working hard, a great teacher can spark a love of learning and motivate someone who seems unmotivated, especially in today’s era of alienation.
Well, today we have one of those teachers. We have Sonia Kristen, who has taught in public schools for over 20 years. By the end of this episode, we think you’ll understand how great teachers can change the equation when it comes to creating motivated students. Sonia is currently teaching at a public junior high school, and she has been really successful in changing that equation.
We’re going to be talking about whether it’s true that kids are lazier today and more disengaged. They certainly are more disengaged. A 2019 Gallup poll found that 68% of high school students described school, first and foremost, as boring. Why is that? We have so many kids who are disengaged. So welcome, Sonia. It’s a pleasure to have you here. You have worked with many different kinds of kids. Let me give a little background, and then I’d like you to tell us more about your own history.
You were born in the Inland Northwest farmland country, moved away for over 20 years, and now you’ve come back. It’s not an easy life up here in the wintertime. You’re a single mom, keeping everything together through the wet, the snow, the slush, getting back and forth to work, having firewood, keeping your place warm, as well as teaching and also being a community service person, because you help out a number of older folks who can’t help themselves. So tell us a little bit about why you came back, a little of your history, and how you got into teaching.
Sonia Kristen, Guest:
Okay, well, I do have to correct you. I was born in Seattle and raised on the west side. My parents were divorced. I had a connection to the Inland Northwest through my dad, and I moved here after I graduated with my undergraduate degree. My younger brothers, my half-brothers, were still in high school, so I moved here to get to know them, be part of their lives, and I have not left. So I love it.
And your introduction, your first question or statement about whether kids are disengaged because they’re lazy, or whether we have gotten lazy, really sticks with me. I feel like what’s happening is that we’re changing, but the system is not. Teachers are in a really tough place because it is boring. There are not a lot of fun ways to teach all of these standards that we know of. I’m excited to get creative and try new things and do play-based learning, but the standards are rigorous and it’s actually undoable.
I’m about halfway through my curriculum and three-quarters of the way through the school year right now, and that’s going at their pace and meeting them where they’re at. Then they’re expected to pass these state exams that nobody likes. The system itself, I think, is failing kids more than the teachers, who are just given this mandate: this is what you need to teach, this is what they are expected to learn. A lot of it just is not relevant. They do not see the relevance.
And I understand that, because like you said, there’s nothing in that school setting that’s going to help you learn how to split wood, shovel snow, or cook food. There aren’t even home ec classes like I took when I was in school. Language arts, music, those don’t exist anymore in the same way. It’s just math, science, English, history. Study these core topics and be bored and disengaged.
Mark:
That’s a state of reality, for sure, and I’ve experienced it as well. But how do you overcome that? I’ve been in your class. You invited me there one time and we did our thing, and your kids love you. How did you make that connection?
Sonia:
I think that is the root of it. I’ve told you before, I never intended to become a public school teacher. The root of my classroom is connection. It is building rapport and getting to know the kids. I try to understand where they’re coming from.
There is a pretty big disparity in this county in general. It has one of the highest percentages of people living in poverty in the tri-county area. There are lots of addiction issues, abuse issues, and then there are families on the other side of that scale. So there is a huge difference, and you see it in the classroom. You can see the kids who come from trauma every day. Maybe they didn’t eat that day. I can’t even tell you the kinds of trauma. It’s intense.
So when you’re coming from that place, it’s Maslow’s hierarchy. You’re not there to learn. You’re there because it’s a safe place. So that is my first priority.
Mark:
And how do you do that? It’s not always easy. It’s incredibly hard. How do you overcome those odds?
Sonia:
I don’t know, Mark. To answer that question, I don’t really think I do overcome it. I try to reach one kid at a time. Every kid I can reach, or if I made a difference in their life today, that’s a win. I celebrate the wins because there are probably more losses than wins.
Mark:
But what is the method? Do you have a specific method of how you connect? How do you make that happen?
Sonia:
Well, I guess when I meet a new class, they come in and we don’t know each other. So there’s a lot of sharing who I am and why I’m there. Then I try to get a piece of them. But teaching middle school, they’re not super open. It’s kind of an awkward time in life. It takes a long time.
Like I said, we’re three-quarters of the way through the school year, and I have kids crying sometimes. But that is a win in itself. It means they feel safe enough that this is a place where they can open up or break down or whatever. But I also have kids slam the doors and walk out.
Mark:
You just said a really important word, and that’s safe. The fact that one of the kids felt safe enough to cry means that room, with just you and the kids, feels safe. You’re doing something to make them feel safe. What is that?
Sonia:
I guess kids are very aware of authenticity. They’re really quick to dismiss you if they sense insincerity. So they’ve seen me make mistakes and have to apologize and ask their forgiveness, like, “Oh, I shouldn’t have said that. Let me try that again.” I really try to model just being an authentic human.
Mark:
Or being who you are. Having known you for a few years, what we see right now is who you are with the kids as well. One of the things that I would often say to the kids is, “I’m not going to be right all the time, but I’ll always give you my best.”
Sonia:
Great. And my best today may not look like my best yesterday or my best tomorrow. They get that. And it’s the same for them. I can tell when something is up. “Everything okay?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, I just didn’t get enough sleep last night,” or, “So-and-so broke up with me,” or whatever the case may be.
Mark:
So, Sonia, how do you work with each kid? Do you have a standard way of working with each kid, or do you treat each kid individually? How do you get that breakthrough?
Sonia:
That’s a good question, Mark, because that is the biggest challenge. One size does not fit all. In education now, there’s a lot of training and professional development focused on teaching to the individual kid. It’s not the standard from a decade or two ago, where learning styles used to be really big. Are they a visual learner, an auditory learner, and so on? Now it’s more like, scrap that. Everything you teach should address all of those things, because we’re all kind of a mix anyway.
So it’s more individualized. One of my students really struggles to focus and actually really cannot focus without support. I have him sitting right in front of me, and it’s just frequent check-in, frequent check-in, frequent check-in. “Are you with me? Do you want to come up here?” If I’m not doing that with him, he is not learning.
We don’t have school most Fridays, so I opened up a Friday school, and he has been the kid who comes in. When I work with him one-on-one, he gets it. That might be the only time he gets it. So that’s an example of individualization.
Mark:
Tell me about a really successful lesson you’ve had or a successful connection you’ve had with a student that was just a big win, especially a kid who might have been bored or tuned out.
Sonia:
A couple of things come to mind. One was this student who is pretty hard on herself. She wants to do well, but she was very frustrated because she wasn’t getting it. That was a pretty easy tweak. Just frequent but brief one-on-one check-ins with her and encouragement. “That’s it. You got it.” And she’s like, “Yes.” It really changed things up.
Now she’s at the top of my class, whereas before she was really struggling and feeling bad about herself. So for her, it was confidence. I would use that language. “Be confident in yourself, honey. You’re second-guessing yourself. You have it.” That is big. Encouragement, I think, is huge.
I’ve also got a kid who really does not want to be there. He’s actually not passing most of his classes right now. He does not care. But I found something that he does like, which is these little brain teaser puzzles. He went from the easiest to the hardest in a day. I can hardly challenge him enough. I’m like, “Look, see? You are smart. You can do things I can’t do. So you could also try to do the things I’m trying to teach you.”
He’s a tough one, but at least I have something that he can do, something he enjoys that engages him, even if it’s not learning how to combine like terms in the distributive property, which is very abstract and does not feel relevant.
Mark:
So it sounds like you’re trying to individualize success for each kid over time. Is that accurate?
Sonia:
Yeah, that is accurate. I’ve really thought a lot about what success is, because your successful is very different than my successful.
I told you I was late logging in because I was down burning a pile, and while I was down there at the burn pile, I was thinking about my own kids.
Mark:
Explain that, please. Most people don’t know what a burn pile is.
Sonia:
Cleaning up. We had a huge storm here a couple of weeks ago, lots of trees and branches down. There’s a very short window in the spring and in the fall where we can burn, because otherwise we have snowy winters and really hot, dry summers. So in the springtime I’m spending my weekends cleaning up and burning. That’s what I mean by burn pile.
Mark:
Thank you for explaining that. All right, let’s go back.
Sonia:
I was thinking while I was down there about success and what it looks like and how it looks different for different people. My oldest son is graduating from WSU, and he has had the mindset that this has been a terrible waste of his time and money, that the education system is rigged, and so on. I think on the one hand, he’s not wrong.
On the other hand, he has seen me as a single mom, blessed and grateful that I did have a bachelor’s degree so that I could go on and get my master’s and support our family. But I’m not the pitcher of success. It depends on how you measure it. Other single moms who have to raise their kids on their own salary would be like, “That’s success. You did it. Good job. You’re doing it.” But people who want more luxuries or money left over at the end of the month would say that’s not successful, and maybe your education did not serve you well.
Success for one kid might mean, “I made it through the day and I didn’t get written up.” Success for another kid is, “I finally get it and I’m going to pass my test,” because they care about those things. But I would say it’s maybe 50-50, probably less than that, maybe 60-40 for those who do not care about their grades or education versus those who do.
Mark:
So is there a need for us as teachers to help define with the student what success means for him or her? My feeling is that you can teach to the curriculum all you want, and I realize that’s what you’re charged with and responsible for. But how much they remember, no matter how good a teacher you are, is up in the air. Most kids don’t remember very much at all. If you can get a kid to learn how to read, write, and do basic math, especially for the kids who aren’t going to high-end colleges, does it make sense to help define what success is for each kid?
Sonia:
Yes. I think that is the missing piece for most kids. Who am I? What do I love? What do I enjoy? How can I do more of that? And how do I get along with others?
Just the basic human people skills are missing. Also, a lot of what I would call basic math, basic reading, and basic writing skills are missing. Kids cannot read or write cursive anymore. They can’t tell time on an analog clock. There’s a lot of discussion that that’s not necessary, but I think if you know how to read an analog clock, there are a lot of implications for math there, fractions, counting by fives or tens, lots of implications. But it’s skipped. It’s not taught anymore.
Kids don’t know their basic multiplication tables anymore, and this may just be my experience in this county and my 10 years of teaching, but in my experience, all these things are true.
It’s interesting to me because we’ve moved away from what they call “drill and kill.” We did multiplication tables every week. We did spelling lists every week. But we could spell, and I still know my multiplication tables. It works. Practice, practice, practice, and it’s just not there anymore.
So I would prefer if we went back to the basics and really taught some important things that you’re actually going to use throughout your life, no matter what your path is. You need to know if you have enough money to put this many gallons of gas in the car, or if you need to refinance that high-interest loan, or whatever the case may be.
And focus more on: do I know how to shop and cook, take care of myself, treat other people, and interact with other people? We are on a brink right now, I feel like, with kids as young as two years old having little devices in their hands who don’t get outside and free play like we did when we were kids. They don’t. And I’m sure you see that. Go into any grocery store or restaurant and there’s a family sitting down. They’re not talking to each other. They’re all looking at their screens.
Mark:
We’ve been having a number of discussions about play. I believe that play is one of the best ways to learn, and neuroscience has proven that. As we’ve talked about curiosity, getting kids curious and active through play is one of the main factors in making people creative. Being outdoors and having nature as a teacher is not just about what you learn from nature, but how nature centers and grounds you. I feel like that has never been as important as it is today, and that’s why I’m attracted to your philosophy of play and nature and the outdoors. How do we learn there?
Sonia:
I feel like the “why” is answered. There’s no doubt about why. Like you said, there’s plenty of science to prove that we learn through play and that being outdoors is healthy and a great place to learn.
But the “how” still haunts me. I just don’t know how to put the two together. Sure, one week at a nature camp is one thing, but how do we make this our daily experience? There are outdoor schools popping up, which I’m really excited about, but they don’t reach the kids I teach.
The kids I teach, like I think I said the other day, their parents are very used to free meals and free transportation and don’t have the means to get their kids into what would be considered a better learning environment. So that “how” is, I feel like, my mission at this point. How do we get play-based, outdoor, nature learning to the kids who need it the most?
Mark:
That’s really well said. In other words, the system is the problem, and you are obviously having to follow through on the system, otherwise you get fired if you’re not following the curriculum. That’s very difficult for parents to see, that their child is suffering from a system.
I’m very big in working with at-risk kids and saying, “You’re not to blame. You’re not behind. You’ve only just begun.” It’s amazing how kids can be refreshed and start again. Are you allowed to offer kids projects they can decide on from their own interests?
Sonia:
Yeah, absolutely, and I do. But I do that maybe a couple of times a year in each class because it does take time, and it may be one of the best learning experiences they have that year. So why wouldn’t we do that more often?
Mark:
Why is being a middle schooler such a difficult time of life, and why should parents especially understand that?
Sonia:
I think parents understand really well because they know their kids, but they don’t always know how to respond.
One of the things I’ve experienced a lot is that a junior high school kid has now become more aware of the outside world. They’ve gotten some knowledge. They’ve seen the baloney, often, and they can start to see the wheat from the chaff. But what I’ve found is that they will take you on equally about world peace and chewing gum the right way. They have no discernment as to what’s really important. So you’re dealing with a very illogical, but sometimes very insightful, young person, and how to thread that needle.
Mark:
How do you do that?
Sonia:
I think following their lead is fun. Sometimes they delight in getting the class off topic, if you will. That’s power. I keep a timer reminder as one of the classroom jobs so I can see where we are time-wise. They might think they’re derailing me and now we don’t have to do the lesson, but I want them to know that I honor their curiosity and their questions.
Giving them real-life examples, saying, “Okay, let me show you a video on this,” or, “Yeah, I’ll play your favorite artist,” is one way. We’ll go down some rabbit holes, and then I just have to bring it back in. And it’s fun. It’s fun for me and it’s fun for them. That can bring back their engagement.
Mark:
I think that’s one of the reasons you’re such a good teacher. That would be hell for most teachers. You said it’s fun to bring them back in. What I found is that a really good teacher can jump from one box to another, because kids are always looking for power, and if they can get power over a teacher, they’ve won. I’ve seen in your class that you don’t have many discipline problems, but when you have had them, how have you dealt with a kid who’s acting out and affecting the rest of the class?
Sonia:
One of the biggest issues I have now is that this class in particular is mean to each other, and they know it. I was like, “Man, you guys are mean,” and they were like, “Yeah.” So I would say that discipline-wise, the number one issue I’ve had is making rude or unkind comments to each other.
I stop it and address it, and I let them know that is not allowed here and why. I’ve shown them videos on Emoto’s water crystals, for instance, and how words really are powerful, and how what we tell ourselves and how we speak to each other is really important.
That’s really important to me because I think that of all the things you might learn in school, learning how to talk to yourself and how to treat other people is more important.
Mark:
That’s interrelated with values. One of the reasons I think you are successful is because your values are pretty clear. It’s very clear that being around you, you respect others and want that in return. That’s a difficult lesson, especially at the junior high school age, because they’re just trying to get through without being embarrassed, and if they have to be nasty to someone else so they won’t be embarrassed, lots of kids will do that. How often do you have to remind them that there needs to be respect in this class and that they need to treat each other differently?
Sonia:
Oh, fairly often. I think we turn it into a class discussion. I’ll take the last five minutes of class and circle up. We do have these moving desks that are pretty cool. We share out. “How did you feel when that happened?” Or sometimes it’s, “How did it feel to say those unkind things to that other person?”
Remember that when you hurt somebody, you’re hurting yourself. Forgiveness is also for yourself. You don’t forgive somebody necessarily for them, but for you and for your own heart to be okay. There’s a lot of struggle in this group, and they share with me. But they’re also very guarded because, like you said, middle school is the time of the most insecurity and lack of self-assurance or self-esteem. The mirror is always on, and you’re like, “Oh, I can’t say that because he’s going to tease me.”
It’s a hard time. I am of the philosophy that middle schoolers would grow more in their own self-awareness and confidence if they were educated separately by gender, but nobody likes my theory.
Mark:
That’s a fascinating one. Can you give a reason why?
Sonia:
The reason is that they’re less insecure. The boys and girls are so different developmentally at this age. The puberty thing coming in is obviously a really hard one. I think that’s worth getting into at a much deeper level.
They learn very differently. Boys need movement. They don’t like a lot of words, and they need more movement. Girls want to talk, talk, talk about it. This is just my experience over the last few years with middle school. If the boys aren’t there, man, those girls will talk it up. But they won’t if the boys are there. And if the boys are moving around and distracting, it distracts the girls. I see it as a split. I just think both would be more successful if the other weren’t around.
Mark:
That’s really insightful. So I’m going to ask you one last question. If you could make one change or add one course, if you had free rein to put something into the curriculum that needs more time spent on, what would you add? And what would you subtract?
Sonia:
Okay, well, SBAC testing, state testing, I would subtract. I would also minimize the standards. There are too freaking many of them. I would get more back to the basics.
The state assessments are meant for accountability, and I understand that there needs to be accountability, but there are way too many things wrong with it. One of the things that’s really wrong is that when we’re teaching kids, they have resources. They get to discuss with one another. They have visual aids on the board. They have their teacher. They can ask questions. That’s their learning all year. Then you sit them down in this high-stakes test and take away all their resources. They cannot have notes. They can’t have visuals. They can’t talk. And they instantly look at that screen, which is also not how they usually test because they’re usually testing on paper.
Besides, if you’re spending a lot of your time practicing for the test, which we do, it’s just a waste of time, I think. It’s horrible altogether. So I would subtract the state testing, at least as it is, and figure out another way to have kids be accountable that’s more practical and relevant.
What would I add? One of the first things that came to mind was more food. Everybody loves food. There are a lot of lessons in science and nutrition and math and measurement, and then there’s this fun interaction around food. We eat together. How do we eat together? How do we pass the plate and share and make sure everybody gets enough? This kid wants more, this one doesn’t. What do we like? How do we make things?
I think cooking and eating together is something I would add. And definitely more outdoors. The kids want to go outside now that it’s spring. They want outdoor class, which is just the same stuff but outside. I do integrate that, but I would want more actual outdoor experiences. We’ve done bike riding and ropes courses and different field trips, but I would want that to be more a part of the curriculum.
Mark:
Those are really wonderful ideas. I love that eating idea, and of course you know I’m into the outdoors and getting kids outside.
I really want to thank you. This has been really insightful for me. Understanding junior high school kids has really been helpful to me, and what a challenge it is. I just want to say thank you, Sonia.
Sonia:
Thanks, Mark. I look forward to getting Kuriosity Lab into the schools.
Mark:
Oh, I am too.
